From Balanced and Barefoot to TimberNook: Why Outdoor Play is Essential with Angela Hanscom
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Angela Hanscom, pediatric occupational therapist and founder of TimberNook, joins me to talk about how nature-based, child-led play is the key to healthy development—and how we’ve lost touch with it in our modern world. We discuss sensory integration, the neuroscience behind outdoor play, and what it looks like to rebuild childhood from the ground up (literally).
Reframing Play as Development
Angela explains that what looks like “just playing” is actually deep developmental work. Nature provides uneven terrain, variable stimuli, and calming sensory inputs that challenge and support the brain—something classrooms can’t replicate.
From Hesitation to Confidence
We talk about how modern kids often lack basic grip strength and risk-assessment skills, and how we as parents can slowly guide them back toward competence and independence. Angela encourages us to resist the urge to do too much for our kids, and to let them grow through their own experiences.
What TimberNook Offers
Angela shares how TimberNook started in her backyard and is now an international movement, reaching schools, families, and therapists worldwide. Unlike recess, TimberNook centers on child-led play in natural settings, intentionally removing adult interference to give kids the space they need to grow.
Mixed-Age Play, Community & Confidence
We chat about the importance of mixed-age play, building neighborhood trust, and even how Angela’s own kids—now teenagers—have been shaped by growing up outdoors. She offers practical tips for city-dwellers and rural parents alike.
Advocating for Change
Angela encourages parents and educators to educate themselves and others, using books like Balanced and Barefoot as tools for advocating for longer recess, nature-based learning, and rethinking the classroom model to support real development.
*Some of the links in this post are affiliate links, which means I may earn a small commission (at no extra cost to you) if you decide to make a purchase. I only share products and brands I genuinely love and use with my own family. Thanks for supporting My Outdoorsy Mom!
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Julianne Nienberg (00:00)
Welcome to the My Outdoorsy Mom podcast. I'm your host, Julianne Nienberg, mom of three, backyard adventure enthusiast, and your go-to gal for making memories outside with your kids. This is your space to ditch the pressure of perfect and embrace simple, soul-filling time in nature that fits real family life. Each week, we'll talk motherhood, nature play, travel, and entrepreneurship with honest stories, practical tips, and guest conversations that'll feel like chatting with a friend.
Whether you're raising wild little explorers or building a business during nap time, I see you. So grab your coffee, toss some snacks in your bag, and let's make some memories. This is the My Outdoorsy Mom podcast.
Julianne Nienberg (00:39)
Today's guest is someone whose work has deeply shaped my own motherhood journey. Angela Hanscom is a pediatric occupational therapist and the author of one of my all time favorite books, Balanced and Barefoot. She's also the founder of Timber Nook, an internationally recognized nature-based developmental program for children. In a world where structured activities and screen time are the norm, Angela's voice is a powerful reminder of the importance of outdoor.
unstructured play and the vital connection between movement and brain development. Angie, welcome to the podcast.
Angela (01:11)
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Julianne Nienberg (01:13)
I will say your book changed how I viewed childhood development. It's been pivotal in my own motherhood journey, as well as so many mothers around the world. So I want to open up our conversation with one of the first paragraphs in your book where you say, at Timber Nook, a nature-based developmental program for children, we are not in the business of entertaining children. Can you unpack that statement and share what led you to create Timber Nook?
Angela (01:40)
Yeah, so it's funny because whenever I hear that statement, I always remember this child coming up to me one time who said, you know, what are we doing right now at Timber Nook? And I'm like, don't, it's time to play. And she's like, are you kidding me? She's like, my mom is paying you good money to entertain me. And I remember thinking like, how old are you? And the little girl was only six years old and really in that mindset of the adult's role is to entertain us. And so
The whole purpose behind Timber Nook is the adults actually reduce their presence and to empower the kids to come up with their own play ideas. So basically the reason why I created Timber Nook, I didn't know it at the time, but you know over the years I've really reflected on this is I think part of the reason why Timber Nook exists is because
The occupation of outdoor play is really at risk and it's really affecting development in really profound ways. And so the whole purpose is to restore that and to make it as authentic as possible, as real as possible. And that's why the program is so therapeutic. But that's pretty much the reason why all of it started.
Julianne Nienberg (02:55)
in your book, you talk a lot about sensory integration and the importance of movement for brain development. What does that look like in a typical Timber Nook day?
Angela (03:05)
Yeah, that's a good question. Well, so the children really create their own worlds out there, their own societies, they come up with their own rules of how they're going to play. And our particular woods is different than other timber nook sites. Like they all look a little different. ⁓ But ours is about two acres of woodland surrounded by probably about 62 acres of woods. ⁓ but the majority of it is
takes place on about two acres. And the kids really have the ability to climb giant boulders, climb trees, pick up heavy materials to build forts. So they're really engaging the muscles and senses as they move about their environment in many different ways.
Julianne Nienberg (03:50)
That's awesome. I know one of the things that stood out to me in your book when you talked about children, the expectation for children to sit still in classrooms. And one of the funniest takeaways that I have is not in these words exactly, but you share stories of how teachers are saying their kids are constantly fidgeting or they're just plainly falling out of their chairs because they lack the postural control to sit upright for so long. So what is it about the outdoors that is allowing children to
You know, have this sensory integration that just can't be replicated in a classroom.
Angela (04:23)
Yeah, that's a good question. Well, if you think about sitting, like kids are in a like literally in a seat. And so they're really kind of stuck in that position. And what will happen is certain muscles will shorten that shouldn't shorten and certain muscles will lengthen that shouldn't and it will affect their posture and gait. And you know, they're not moving in vigorous ways to develop their body properly. And so so that is like
the most restrictive, but where kids are sitting in chairs about nine hours a day is the research I've sat in on. And so they're in the seat majority of time. And so it's very, how do I explain it? It's not a very sensory experience. And so when you're out playing outdoors, it's the opposite because the first thing that happens is when you step outdoors, the ground is uneven, right? So indoors, everything is kind of level. You don't have to think about it much.
Julianne Nienberg (05:00)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Angela (05:14)
It's not going to challenge your muscles and senses. But if you take a child and you put them outdoors right away, it's uneven terrain. They're having to adjust their muscles and senses. And then you have like all the other senses coming at you, right? So you have wind, you have ⁓ sunshine, you have different smells outside, you have nature sounds like bird sounds, and all of that helps to develop what we call ⁓ sensory integration.
which is like organization of the brain. And that lays the foundation for learning. And so when you step outdoors, multiple synapses are firing in the brain. And so again, that chance for organization will be stronger. But the other thing to keep in mind is if you look in our occupational therapy books, so I'm an occupational therapist, I should mention that. But if you look in our OT books, ideal state for sensory integration is to be in a calm, but alert state of mind.
So again, you look at colors outside and you'll see blues and browns and greens. And those are very calming stimuli. You go for a massage and they often have nature sounds, right? They have crashing waves. You know, there's a reason why doctors say bring your babies outside. It's very calming, but you have to be alert, right? Cause the ground is uneven. An animal might run by. You have to pay attention. And so that happens to be the ideal state again for sensory integration.
And then we want to think about how much time is children in an environment that's conducive to that organization of the brain? And then how much time are they in an environment that might be disorganizing? ⁓ You know, some of our classrooms even, if you look at the classrooms, there's a lot of posters on the walls, and that could be visually disorganizing. Even just being close to other children inside can be very disorganizing for children. And the noise level is different.
Julianne Nienberg (06:49)
Mm-hmm.
Angela (07:05)
But when you step outdoors, you think about it like when we're watching kids play in the woods, they can really get away from each other. Like there's kids building a fort in one corner of the woods and then in a totally different corner and they, it's very grounding, very organizing. And so we want to think about what percentage of time are children in that kind of environment that's organizing to the brain. And then how much time are they in an environment that's disorganizing, disruptive and dysregulating.
Julianne Nienberg (07:32)
I love that you talk about how long are they in that type of environment because one of the most common questions or just challenges I hear from other moms is that their children get bored right away. And you alluded to that earlier on when you talked about that little girl who came up to you and she didn't quite know what to do with herself. And so in your book, you talk about how it can take children up to 45 minutes to settle into independent creative play.
So can you walk us through what is going through the brain? Why is this happening? what advice would you give to parents who are saying, my kid just comes up to me right away and says, I'm bored when they go outside. It's like, for parents, they've gotten their kids outside. But now the next step is, how do we get them to engage in that creative?
unstructured play for longer periods of time so that, you know, moms can have a little bit of a break so we can sit down and drink a coffee and enjoy ourselves and enjoy being outside as well.
Angela (08:29)
Yeah, it really takes, ⁓ it takes boredom actually to get there and to have practice. So let's say sometimes when I do a speaking engagement, I'll have an adult come up to me and say, you know, this is really important. And so, you know, but I let my child go out and they come back in two minutes later saying there's nothing to do out there. Like all I see is rocks, leaves and sticks. And really, you know, I recommend they send that child back out. And let's say that child sits in the dirt and they're bored.
and they pick up a stick and they start digging with that stick. what happens is they start getting new play affordances. So digging in the dirt with that stick gives them one play affordance I can dig. And then let's say they start writing with it and they realize, I have two affordances. I can write with a stick. I can dig with it. And then let's say they see another child building a fort with sticks. Now they have three affordances.
So being exposed to other children using those materials in different ways actually gives them new play ideas and having time to experiment with those materials. But it does take plenty of time to get bored and to start experimenting and to be exposed to other people.
Julianne Nienberg (09:43)
Absolutely. think, you know, part of that is it's it's almost like a new muscle. It's you know, it's muscle memory. It's wiring in the brain to access these different parts of their creativity. And so, you know, I talk a lot about my story and we started the way that we were getting outside was just in these 15 minute increments, because at the time my kids were really young. And when we started playing, they would kind of hover around me like they wouldn't leave me. It was like they were little barnacles stuck to me. And as they got.
Well, as time went on, we would go outside every day for 15 minutes after I picked him up from daycare, and I'd send him outside. And as the days went on, I slowly just started to kind of inch my way back into the house. But at least I had a window where I could watch them. And I think the first four days, they would literally peer into the sliding door and say, mom, mom, what are we going to do? They were really young, so they were just looking for me and trying to figure out what they would do.
As time went on, 15 minutes grew into 30 minutes. And eventually they started to leave the patio. And I didn't send them out there with toys, right? Like as you said, I really wanted them to engage their creativity with the things around them. So I love that you talk about how it can really take kids sometimes up to 45 minutes to decide what they're going to do, who they're going to play with, what they're going to play with. And I think it's just a matter of giving, of parents giving children the time and the place.
or the time and the space to do that, time in their schedules to allow them to get bored, like you said. One of the things you talked about too, and when you were saying these play affordances, and instantly my mind kind of went to these fine motor skills, which then can also lead to gross motor skills. But in your book, you talk about how when we compare today's children to past generations, they just can't keep up.
Angela (11:11)
Yeah.
Julianne Nienberg (11:31)
I think you're referring to more of a physical aspect, but can you unpack that statement and kind of walk us through what in your research you found children were like playing, you know, 10, 20, 30 years ago versus the children of today?
Angela (11:44)
Yeah, so I mean, there's so many developmental differences, but yeah, there's physical, there's a maturity level. Social skills are really different than they were years past. Play, play ideas, ability to solve their own problems, independence with play, all of that has changed. And so like, you know, when I dive into these topics, like it's...
Julianne Nienberg (11:56)
Hmm.
Angela (12:12)
There's like every aspect of the growing child is changing. Something like even just their grip strength isn't quite where it used to be. Like at one of our standardized assessments for occupational therapists, like all the kids were coming up with grip strength issues when compared to like 30, 40 years ago and the averages back then. And so a lot of us are being held, do we hold them to the same standard or do we change the norms of these assessments?
Julianne Nienberg (12:16)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Angela (12:37)
they've actually changed the norms of that assessment because all the kids were coming up with grip strength issue. that's also like, it's interesting how our environment, you know, like we're making so many accommodations for children. And, you know, we really do need to really be aware of their environment and, you know, and the key is not doing so much for them ⁓ because then they're lacking those skills.
Julianne Nienberg (12:44)
you
Hmm.
I love that you talked about grip strength because I have three children and what I've noticed is I have one child, my middle, whose hand grip strength has always been crazy. This is the kid that's the mover and the shaker. I say, you know, he rolled over at his first week appointment. He climbed out of his crib at 18 months old. And I think at three years old, he managed to unscrew a light bulb in his lamp in his bedroom. And so his hand grip strength is fantastic.
Whereas my oldest, noticed she's the one that's always coming up to us and asking, will you open this snack for me? Or will you, can you open this jar for me? And in the last year or so, I've really, the differences between their grip strength has really become quite visible. And so now I'm in this, you know, I'm in the season of challenging her to try to open up this jar. I'll bang on the side to like kind of loosen it up for you, but I want you to try this because I've noticed that her hand grip strength is not
not quite as strong as her younger brothers. And so when you talk about some of these things, you know, not accommodating our children or really empowering them to do some more things on their own, some of these things are like easy as teaching them how to open up their own snack. know, it requires two, your pints are grasped, it requires two little fingers, and those are some simple ways to, encourage our kids to increase their grip strength that don't necessarily.
you know, have to be outside. But what are some other ways that parents can encourage, on a day to day, some of these skills that children need to be challenged with, you know, for their overall growth and development?
Angela (14:35)
Yeah, well, I have an example of that. Like we have these two little boys that come to Timbernaut currently and they came in the beginning of the year and they couldn't even put their own backpack on. Like I think there were probably four and six, like basic skills, you know, and they would be like, help, help. then, they over time have learned to put their own backpacks on. And then like they would even like have a struggle opening up zippers, but it took a lot of like, you can do this. ⁓
Julianne Nienberg (14:49)
Mm-hmm.
Angela (15:03)
Empower like you you can actually do this and just being there to assist if needed but like for the most part like Recognizing that they're capable but then what's interesting is watching their play So in the first couple of weeks they would literally just sit there and watch the other children play and it didn't matter if kids would invite them They were not used to it not used to playing so they did a lot of onlooker play But the key is to be patient like it's so hard to watch that from adults
A lot of our even our adults want to go in like, we do something different? Should we like entice them? Should we put something in front of them? I'm like, nope, just wait. And so what's interesting is they started slowly getting up their courage. Like one of them wanted to go on the rope swing and was like standing up.
And he was reaching for it and another girl came out nowhere and grabbed it and he was like, then he sat back down. And so he was like, at least he made a step. But then the next week he actually grabbed the rope swing and went on it. And like, it's so interesting how each child has their own progression of what they're ready for and when they are. And the key is that play, true play is a choice. And so like allowing them the opportunity and try, you know, resisting the urge to intervene as hard as it is, but.
Julianne Nienberg (16:02)
Hmm.
Angela (16:18)
Then what they did was they found one friend that would entertain them. So very interesting. A little boy would entertain them and they would follow him around and they would just walk in circles and he would make them laugh and they'd laugh. And then over time, they finally would start venturing to different parts of the woods and going into a little more creative play. They're still not quite where they should be. I feel like they could use another year of Timber Nook to get them where they should, but it really does take time.
Julianne Nienberg (16:35)
Hmm.
You know, one thing I heard you say when you're talking about these kids playing together, and I have a question about, at Timber Nook, the kids in groups of, they with peers their age, or is it a mixed age environment?
Angela (16:59)
It's a mixed age environment. This particular timberdark group, think they're mostly four to eight. So it's still mixed, but it's not as, sometimes we have a span that's like, you know, a lot bigger. Like it might be like four to nine. And when you have older kids, it's even more helpful because they really pull the kids in. But yeah, this is a little, they're a little bit younger, but they're still a mix because true neighborhood play is a mixture of ages, you know.
Julianne Nienberg (17:13)
Mm-hmm.
Angela (17:27)
and the older kids will often help the little kids do things.
Julianne Nienberg (17:31)
Absolutely, you know, we have we have wonderful neighbors next to us who it seems like Time has just flown by and their kids are all of us and teenagers now to the point where even my kids notice They're not the same I said no, they're not the same because they've they've grown up and so we have these wonderful teenagers next to us who play with my kids and just run around and chase them after school or you know, throw a baseball or a football with them and like you said, I think there is such a benefit and such a beautiful thing to this mixed age play
that it's funny that we even have to have a term for it now because I feel like when we were growing up, it was just kind of what you did. You just played with whoever was around. They might have been younger than you. They might have been older than you. But when you allow for this mixed age play, you have the big kids who kind of step up.
and take this leadership position. And so when I heard you talk about that boy, I was kind of wondering what the ages were because it sounds like there was one who was a little bit hesitant, maybe a little shy, and then there was one who was willingly wanting to entertain the group. And I thought, wow, that's really like a beautiful picture of what I imagine Timbernook would be with this mixed age play.
Angie, will you share the concept of Timber Nook and how you decided to open up other locations?
Angela (18:40)
Yeah, of course. Yeah. I actually, never, it was actually never my idea. It was not something I thought of or, you know, dreamed of doing. I actually wanted to be just a pediatric occupational therapist. When my two daughters were born, I wanted to stay home with them and enjoy it and go back to work in the clinic setting. So I worked in a very like sensory, a sensory clinic where everything's engineered to be sensory.
But what happened was I had my own children and I started observing all sorts of interesting sensory issues like kids not wanting wind in their face and not wanting to get dirty and just paying very close attention to some of these issues. And then I joined a mom's group because that was kind of the thing to do at the time and people were asking me specific questions about issues they were seeing. Like why is my kid spinning in circles all the time? Why can't my child pay attention?
And really what happened was I started being aware that there was a lot less kids outdoors. I'm like, where are the children? Like, why is no one outside playing? And I wanted this for my own kids. So I just created a program for my own kids in my backyard and didn't really have plans of sharing it. But what happened was there was a huge need. And every year I agreed to do it one more year.
And then there became such a demand and I couldn't keep up with it. I didn't want to run summer camps. I ended up doing summer camps, which is not the training that we get as occupational therapists. I guess I realized that this had nothing to do with me. It was something I was supposed to share because
parents were trying to sign up for the program but couldn't get in. They were crying and they made me feel a little guilty. They're like, you know, my kid got into your program last year but didn't get in this year. You know, what are you going to do about that? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't want to run summer camps. Also, I'm not supposed to be working. yeah, I basically went and got business mentors and they taught me to license a program of Timber Nook. And so now it's a license opportunity.
and I was going to just market New England, but what happened was I wrote an article called Why Kids Fidget and that went really viral and then it got picked up by the Washington Post and that exploded and then I did a TED Talk for Johnson & Johnson and then the book came about and so it was like one thing after another. It just kept, it kept happening. It wasn't like it was in my control. Everything was out of out of my hands. It was just a huge need and it was clearly not just
local issue. It was something that worldwide kids are not spending enough time outdoors and how it's affecting development. And then basically in 2017 a school was knocking on my door saying, we want Tim Bernick in the school and I'm like nope we're doing summer camp we're not going to the schools. And again my you know my plan was a little different than what God had planned for me and so that's when I realized that we were supposed to go to schools and license them to use the program.
Julianne Nienberg (21:09)
Hey.
Hahaha
Angela (21:36)
And that has become a really important part of Timbernicke as well is that the kids, you know, that might not be able to afford private programming really need it more than ever. And what I'm hearing from teachers is that they're becoming very desperate. It's very, it's becoming almost like it's not working anymore. You know, what's happening in school, we've restricted them so much that kids are suffering. And so Timbernicke is bringing back
Julianne Nienberg (21:50)
Hmm.
Angela (22:02)
joy, it's something that they really need and the teachers are finding joy again when they're out there. And so it's been really interesting to watch that unfold. But that's how Timbernicke went all the way to Australia and across the world before I even went to the next state over.
Julianne Nienberg (22:21)
Wow, that is
such an incredible story. for you to hear God's calling for you, even though you probably wanted to run the other way, and it sounds like you wanted to enjoy your life as a mom and having your two kids, but what a gift that you got to share this program with so many others, so many other educators, but as well as so many other families. My son did a nature-based preschool.
Angela (22:31)
Yeah.
Julianne Nienberg (22:48)
here in our community, are so lucky to have one like right in our backyard. And it was just a joy to see these kids, you know, especially the little boys have a space to run around, to get muddy, to have, they would just end up, he'd come home so sweaty, like when it was in the fall time, he'd come home so sweaty, just a face full of dirt. And I thought this is the picture of childhood, right? This is the quintessential.
image of childhood that every kid should have access to. And so if you're a parent that's listening and maybe they don't have a timber nook in their area or maybe they don't have another nature-based preschool, what are some tips that you can give for parents to get their kids outside more so that they can experience these simple little joys? You know, sometimes I get comments from followers who tell me they live in a city or they don't have a big backyard.
What's some advice that you can give to those parents?
Angela (23:44)
That's a good question. You know, it's really important to... it takes more effort if you are in a city, obviously, but there is a way. There's always a way and it's gonna take a little bit of planning, but I remember doing a speaking engagement one time for a Bernard School in New York City and I remember the expert there, she's also an author, and she turned to me and she's like, don't let anyone ever tell you that they can't...
excuse that they can't be outside if they live in a city. Like there's always a place for them to go. And you know like in New York City for example, there's a bunch of beautiful parks. It does take effort. You have to bring your child there or teach them to get there themselves like at some point you know. But it is important to allow access to nature and allowing them to move and play with other children. Another thing they can do is invite children over for the entire day.
Julianne Nienberg (24:25)
Hmm.
Angela (24:36)
versus like an hour, like a play date. you know, invite, like if you don't have kids in your neighborhood or have kids near you, you know, inviting kids to come over is really key. I had to do that with my daughters. There was no kids around that were willing to play outside. So I would invite kids over and they would entertain each other and come up with their own play ideas. And then, you know, encouraging them if they do have kids in the area.
to go knock on their door and invite them to come play and talk to the parents. Create community that allows that kind of play. We had to do that with our neighbors. I remember one of them was in my yard. like, you don't have to watch them. They're good. So just giving them permission too, because you never know when you meet someone new, you feel obligated to have to observe or supervise. But it's nice because we now have cell phones and we can text each other like,
Hey, so Maggie's over here playing and vice versa. And it's really like a level of trust over time that you just know the kids are together and they're independent. So I think working with the other parents is really key as well.
Julianne Nienberg (25:43)
I love that you emphasize, you know, getting to know your community, right? Whether it's your neighbors next door to you or neighbors down the road, but that getting your kids outside allows you to be in community with one another, right? And which is important because we're not meant to do this life alone. We're designed for relationships and relations with those around us. And one of the things, you you mentioned earlier about being in a city. So my first two kids were born in Chicago.
And I look back on it now and we were so fortunate. We lived, you know, three blocks away from a nature preserve. We had a park a block away from us. And that's what I relied on in the first two years of my children's lives because I joke my backyard was the size of a postage stamp. so getting outside for us when they were really little meant sitting on the front stoop and watching our neighbors walk by. You know, it meant walking around the block in our stroller in their stroller and going to the neighborhood playground.
Angela (26:21)
in.
Yes.
Julianne Nienberg (26:39)
And some days, you know, back in the really early little days, I would have us all going to the park, you know, three blocks away with my husband. It would be a family event. And it did take a little bit more work. But as I've gotten older and since we've moved out of the city, I've taken my kids back actually to Chicago. And I recently took my son to New York City. And I was blown away at how many green spaces there were for families and for children. I feel like cities are really...
realizing the importance of creating green spaces for everyone, not just families, but within a block, every time we walked there was a new playground, there was a new, know, and for kids, doesn't need to be a playground, it could just be a tree that they could climb and explore. My son went to Central Park and there are these big giant rocks that he climbed and...
I had that as an activity like strategically planned because we did a museum and he's the kind of kid that goes through museums real quick. Doesn't matter if it's the American, you know, Museum of Natural History or a local museum, but he just blows through them in 20 minutes. And so I knew that I had to get him out of that space and into a wide open space. And so those rocks were perfect for him to climb. But whether it's Central Park or just, you know, a favorite boulder on the corner of your street, kids will find these ways, right? They will just naturally gravitate towards what's natural.
and seek their own fun. So I love that you mentioned that. Now you have two kids. How many kids? Three kids. Okay. You have three kids.
Angela (27:58)
Three kids actually. So yeah, so I've got two
daughters. ⁓ One is almost 20 and then the other one is 17. And then I've got a nine year old son. Yeah.
Julianne Nienberg (28:08)
Wow, wow.
So what did getting outside when you're kids, when you were, when they were younger, what did it look like for your family and what does it look like now? How do you guys enjoy being outdoors together?
Angela (28:19)
Yeah. So when they were really little, I actually had a lot of fears about being in the woods. I had nightmares about being in the woods because I was afraid of ticks. So it's funny. Again, ironic that I'm doing Timbernauk, but I had to overcome a lot of fears and let go. for me, I kind of did something similar to you where I would, you know, I start off like being busy outdoors where I would be raking or I would be doing something so that they knew I was physically present with them. So they weren't afraid of being out there.
And I found that they were more likely to stay outside if I was outside. And then over time, I could kind of wean myself off, like where I would go inside and ⁓ I could watch where they were at. And it was more for me, like letting go of my fear, like I still see them. And then they had walkie talkies for a little bit where they'd bike and then they'd lose their walkie talkies. But, you know, just over time, it was really me letting go of fear and realizing how capable they are.
And it's funny because with my son, I'm much more relaxed.
so he has made friends in the region so they'll go off and he'll tell me. I just ask that he tells me where he's going and so that really helps me. And he's always been proving that he's capable. He just comes back when it's time to eat and so that's really nice. Now my girls grew up doing Timber Nook for many many years and I do think it really formed them because they would
They would create societies out there. They would set boundaries. They would stand up as the leaders, like defending their forts. And I really believe that helped shape them and who they are today. What's really interesting I've been paying attention to lately is that the friends that they're selecting now are pretty non-traditional, like Joelle especially.
is like most of her friends are guys and that are very adventurous and homeschool boys. They're naive. Like, so they did go to a Catholic school all the way through. They did have a lot of Timber Nook, but they in high school, they went to a public school and they did not click with a lot of the guys. They clicked with, yeah, kids that are homeschooled that are super adventurous and spontaneous and like don't care what other people think of them.
She dirt bikes. They both dirt bike actually. They go skiing. But I think that's really interesting because a lot they're not clicking with the traditional girls that want to go shopping or they are on the snap taking pictures of themselves all the time. They don't understand that. They're very friendly. They'll say hi to everyone and people might look at them like who is this person? But socially they connect with people that are probably more mature like that and more adventurous. It's very interesting.
Julianne Nienberg (30:52)
you
I love to hear you address something that I often think about in being a first-time mom and you know I had three under three so those years were really crazy and looking back on it now I'm sure there was some degree of postpartum but also just a lot of fear that I had in taking my kids outside I remember thinking like
well, I can't just take them to the zoo. I have two kids, one might run, one of them doesn't like to be in their stroller or of being out in the woods. I don't know, somebody might fall over. And I'm so encouraged to hear you say that because I think that it's not just us, but there's a lot of moms who have a fear of taking their kids outside and just a fear of the unknown, of what might happen or a fear of ticks.
or a fear of not feeling prepared and putting your family in a position of danger, right? And so it's encouraging to hear you say that. And it's also encouraging to see that now that you've had time to observe and just to have that wisdom that you can only gain through time, right? And by doing and continuing to get out there. But, you know, similar to you, my kids, when I think to my first born, when we lived in Chicago, she was the girl that hated the feeling of grass on her feet.
And I remember thinking to myself, my gosh, what have I done? Like my child, she's that kid that would just start to cry. And that really fit her personality type. In the beginning, she was very, very fussy. she just, it must have been a sensory thing. it occurred to me, well, this is her first time feeling grass. This is her first time touching grass and she doesn't like how it's poking her feet. And now she's the kid.
You know, it sounds she sounds like a lot like your girls, but she's the kid that's created her own societies in our backyard. We have some woods that butt up to our property and she's written nine chapter books of her own on the different villages back there. You know, there's a different era. There's Terabithia. There's Narnia. There's Deerpath Village. There's something else. And she's just out there with her own imagination. And that has come with time. You know, I wasn't like, go out out there, you know, it's every single day, every month, every year.
When I allowed my kids to have more time outside, they stretched their own boundaries and they realized, I can go to this corner of the woods or, ⁓ I can go to this corner of the yard and we can do something here. And it's been a fruitful journey to watch how those seeds that we plant, you know, years ago when it was just us trying to get them outside and then sneak back in a little bit, let them know we're still out there with them and then come back in has produced children who thrive, outdoors and they love.
Just simple things to your point, like kids who aren't gravitating towards Snapchat or kids who are just entertaining themselves with sticks and rocks and things like that. Have your children, now that they're older, gotten involved with Timber Nook?
Angela (33:48)
Yeah, that's really interesting to say that. So my oldest really wants to help with Timber Nook. And so she's already helping with like administrative stuff. She's going to school for business. But, know, at some point it would be good to like pass Timber Nook over. Like I'm not going to live forever. You know, like in our family. so she is definitely a natural leader. And I think that.
it would be interesting to see. And it's all a choice to me. I'm like, it's gotta be God's will for your life. So we pray about it, but yeah, she's definitely, I see her being a part of it somehow.
Julianne Nienberg (34:23)
I love that because not only are you creating this legacy that your kids sounds like they want to be involved in, but also that the outdoors can create these opportunities. I talk with my oldest about how she's drawn to words, to writing stories, which lends itself to beautiful imagery. I tell her, people make careers out of writing books and writing stories. And they make careers out of photographing the beautiful things that they see in nature. So I love that nature.
can kind of open the door for these opportunities for kids to pursue, whether it's for my son, he loves to rock climb. Like I said, that hand grip strength is just at work and he loves to rock climb. so if he, I always tell him, somebody once told him at the indoor rock climbing gym, that's an Olympic sport. And so he got in his head.
Angela (35:01)
Thank
Thank
Julianne Nienberg (35:16)
I could go to the Olympics for rock climbing. said, yeah, you know, it's an Olympic sport now. So it's something that you could strive to do later on. But I just love that these kids are getting exposed to childhood in its simplicity and that it's creating, lifelong lovers of nature, of beautiful and true and good work. And I love to see that your children are getting involved in, in the business of Timber Nook and that they're wanting to be
Here's a question for you. What's a favorite childhood memory that you have that involves the outdoors?
Angela (35:49)
Yeah, my goodness. I keep, you know, thinking about...
playing with my friend that lived close to me and all the adventures we would go on together. I was an only child. So like I kind of relied on and my my best friend, she had a brother who was way older than her. Like he's probably he was probably in college when we were little. And so he was never around. So she was almost like an only child, too. So we we lived in a neighborhood that was like a circle and we had a fence that went between our homes. And my dad made a gate where we'd pull strings so we could get to
other's house. But we were always on our own. Like we would bike to the store and we lived in Vermont so we could return cans for money and we would buy candy with it and then we would go to a garage sale and purchase things. We would take our like old curtains and like kitchenware and we'd have a picnic out in the park together. But yeah just having that freedom to do those things away from our parents.
and you know the adventures we went on by ourselves and you know we got into trouble sometimes we learned from those experiences too but those are those are the most solid memories I have is when we were on our own.
Julianne Nienberg (37:00)
Hmm.
You know, that's something that we share in common. I'm an only child too. And so I had a friend who lived on a farm and we would bike around the farm. We would find different parts of the farm to just play in and we would go out with nothing but some twine and a tape cassette player, just a cassette player, right? And she would get one of the cassettes from her parents and it played the Beatles.
Angela (37:06)
really?
Julianne Nienberg (37:23)
And so I think back and it feels so idyllic. And like you, I was an only child. my mom would send me to my friend's houses and I would just play and I always gravitated towards friends that had big families because I was usually out there on my own trying to find some friends to play with. But I love that that's something that we have in common.
Angela (37:40)
That's pretty funny.
Julianne Nienberg (37:42)
Question for, know, those who are listening and
They're getting their children outside more. And there's a lot of different elements that you talked about that I wanted to kind of circle back to. But the thought of risky play, right? And it's something that I think makes a lot of parents uncomfortable, know, whether it's their kid climbing in a tree or sending their kid out to play down the street. What advice would you give to parents that are nervous about risky play? And what can you share about? you?
talk about what risky play is and the definition of risky play and all the different buckets that kind of come under the category of ⁓ risky play.
Angela (38:20)
Yeah, of course. It's funny because I never really liked that term. when people like, but it is such a trendy term right now. But I really think just play in general comes with some risks, right? And so like, you know, taking away the stigma of of that and not being afraid, you know, outdoor play is such a gift for children. And to just realize that
Julianne Nienberg (38:38)
you
Angela (38:42)
all things have risk. Like even just driving in a car has risks and you know like walking in your house. actually my daughter played hockey, ace hockey with all boys. She played lacrosse and did all these things and she got a concussion not from those sports, not from playing outdoors, from being like she was doing something kind of silly. Like she was reaching down under a
like a table and shaking the table and the vase hit her head and she got concussion. And so like it goes to show that you're, you know, there's risks everywhere. And so just like kind of thinking about it that way first. And then, then thinking about when we are out in the woods watching kids do Timber Nook, they are, they are assessing their own risk. And most children, if they had proper opportunity to deal with
Julianne Nienberg (39:07)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Angela (39:31)
you know, regulating risk from a really early age, even a baby, like putting a baby outside, they're going to be assessing where to go, what's safe, like, and managing that. Then most children will be able to assess properly what risk they need to take. They'll only climb so high. So those kids that really shouldn't be way high up in the tree can't even get up there. They're not strong enough, their body awareness is off, and they're gonna...
They're going to go maybe a little bit and be like, look how high I am. And you have to kind of angle the camera to make it look like, but they really just can't. you know, so that's why I'm big proponent of not putting little children up on big boulders. Like if they can't get up there, don't put them up there. Like they really need to, ⁓ gain the skills themselves. So that's one thing. And then there are what's happening more and more. And I didn't really see it till this year is that there are.
more kids coming for field trips that where they haven't developed proper risk assessment and they're taking what I would call unreasonable risks. Like they're jumping off things, giant boulders and doing it's more rare, but it is popping up more frequently. So to me, it's another red flag to pay attention to. Why are these kids taking unreasonable risks? It's because most likely they are not being allowed to take risks from an early age.
Julianne Nienberg (40:33)
Mm.
Mm.
Angela (40:52)
It's the same concept of like, I'm over protecting my kid, I'm over protecting my kid, thinking you're helping and you're keeping them safe and then putting them in a car and expecting it to be fine. Like, so we really need to allow kids to regulate what they're ready for through outdoor play from a very early age so we see less unreasonable risk taking out in nature, if that makes sense.
Julianne Nienberg (41:16)
That makes complete sense. I, to your point, just in my own observation, I actually teach a nature-based, like faith-based class at my kid's school two days a week. And I can always tell, you can tell the kids that play outside regularly because they know their own limits. Like my son is one of them and the teachers will always send me pictures of how high he got up into a tree. And I know it makes a lot of people nervous, but I'm like, you know what, since he was little and he was climbing, since he was two, two and a half years old, the rule always was,
Angela (41:38)
Mm-hmm.
Julianne Nienberg (41:45)
If you get yourself up, you got to be able to get yourself down. You got to have a plan to get down. And so he's kind of, he's just, he has a great self-awareness, a great kinesthetic, just like body awareness, you know, and he's the kid again, that climbs. But when I hear you talking about these kids making unreasonable risks, right? A lot of times it's because like you said, they haven't been given the freedom in this space to...
Angela (42:04)
you
Julianne Nienberg (42:10)
make those, take those risks repeatedly. So it's kind of like they're getting out there and they're just going a little crazy, you know, like they're like, I have all this room to run around. One of the things that, when we talk about risky player, just watching kids play in general, since I've been doing this over the course of the year, it's fascinating now to watch how kids play, right? Like since reading your book, I'll never look at a playground the same, right? I'm, I'm someone who is
elated when I see a merry-go-round at a playground thanks to your book. And then also, it's a beautiful thing to see the way that kids play. You know, there's a certain group of kids who always gravitate towards the tire swing that spins round and round because they want that sensory input for that vestibular sense, right? And
Angela (42:38)
Thank
Julianne Nienberg (42:53)
It's the same two kids that are always spinning around and around in this tire swing and they never tire of it. They never throw up. You know, they're never nauseous afterwards. They just keep going and going. And then you have the kids who are the tree climbers or the boys who are running on the field and just constantly running at fast speeds because they have all this energy and they're needing a physical outlet for that energy.
It's really beautiful, if you haven't had a chance to read Angie's book, Balanced and Barefoot, it is one that will open your eyes to the way that kids play to childhood development, the way that, our schools structure play, right? And one of the questions that I wanted to ask you before we wrap up is, you know, how can, if you're a parent that's read your book or if you're a parent that's listened today, how can we advocate for more of this type of
play if our kids are in a school setting or if you know even if they're they're homeschooling but what can we do to advocate for more unstructured outdoor play for children?
Angela (43:51)
Yeah, I think the book is key because it will dive into the science behind it. But I always talk about in the healthcare field, we had to take ethics courses and we were always taught to do no harm.
But we're at the point where we're actually causing harm to children. Like the fact that kids are falling out of the chairs, taking unreasonable risks, can't pay attention, having so many issues is a really big red flag. And if we do nothing, we're causing harm now. Like we're not supposed to restrict them so much.
It's really not healthy for them. And so I think opening the eyes for teachers,
And connecting the dots for them is really key because once you know this, once your eyes are open, it's hard to keep doing the same thing, right? You said it yourself, like once you knew you can't you didn't look at things in the same way. So it's like unveiling that for teachers and educators. So giving them information and educating them is the number one thing to do. And it's really like, like I said, teachers, they know that people that just it's once you make the connections, it's really.
Julianne Nienberg (44:42)
you
Angela (45:00)
That's where people start really advocating for change.
Julianne Nienberg (45:03)
I you're right. think as educators, is the information that's in your book and the research and the studies. think even adults are just things that we inherently know to be good and right and true for children and their growth and their development. But I love that your book just lays it all out, right? And it is, like you said, it's a great resource to bring to, whether it's a parent-teacher meeting or advocating with your...
the staff at the school to advocate for more recess, to longer recess times, to get your kids outside or to add another recess into their day. I know teachers are probably like, we have so much to get through. But I promise you, like it is after having this year of, teaching kids and just giving them the free space to run around, it has been so fruitful. It has been so fruitful to see these kids who they love, they love and value their outdoor time. You know, it's something that they look forward to.
Angie, where can listeners find you and more information about Timber Nook as well as your book?
Angela (46:00)
Yeah, so you can go to our website, timbrunwick.com. We're also on Facebook and Instagram. And we do post a lot of information that connects outdoor play to development. And then Bounce and Barefoot, can find just on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, just about anywhere.
Julianne Nienberg (46:21)
Awesome. anything, can you share, what's coming up next for Timber Nook or any new projects that you're working on?
Angela (46:26)
Yeah, so we are researching Timber Nook now on when it does go into a school, on how it's affecting the entire culture of the school and how it does. It's because it's a living example. You know, it's one thing just talking about it, but when you have something like that going into pushing into a school, that's where we're really seeing the change and, you know, inviting teachers to come out and opening their eyes to to the program and how it's different than recess. Like even though recess is beneficial,
it's still very different than Timber Nook. And so that's what we're up to now is researching, getting that data and continuously getting into more schools and also private providers that are like, want this for my kids in my community and I'm going to start something because there's also a desperate need for homeschooling families and children, even if they just go to summer camps that are in traditional school, it is exposing them over and over to.
this kind of program and this kind of thinking.
Julianne Nienberg (47:25)
I love that it's just become widespread, your passion and your work. And I love hearing how parents are feeling called and led to advocate for more outdoor play for their kids. And what a beautiful thing, when you talk about people who make changes, you're seeing a lot of parents, a lot of educators who are parents who have their own children and see this need.
for something different, right? For something different than what we've been doing for so long because what we've been doing, quite frankly, just hasn't been working for children, right? Like you said, it's been keeping them kind of in this box. It's been keeping them from doing, know, just kind of operating as children would with some risk. And it's been almost, you know, I don't want to say stifling, but it's been inhibiting their ability to grow as a child. And so I love hearing that you...
Angela (47:50)
Yeah.
Julianne Nienberg (48:15)
your passion for your work has just spread like wildfire and that people are feeling led to create their own Timber Nooks throughout the country, throughout the world. Angela, as we wrap up, I ask every single guest to share an outdoorsy challenge. It's something simple and actionable that families can try this week with their kids. What's an outdoorsy challenge you would give listeners today?
Angela (48:37)
My outdoorsy challenge would be to consider having some sort of like a friend over for your own children for the entire day, not just for a couple hours or vice versa. And if you have children in the area, my challenge would be like, you know, connect with those other parents to see if they would allow their children to play with your kids.
Julianne Nienberg (48:57)
a lot of times we think about play dates and it's like, well, we have this, two hour time frame open. Can you make that work? you're encouraging families to invite a child over into your home for a whole day to be gracious, to open up your home, to open up your backyard, whatever it is, your schedule to allow for another child to be a part of your day. And I love that. I think that's so beautiful. So thank you for sharing that. And listeners.
your outdoorsy challenges to invite a kid over for the entire day. Your kids are gonna have fun. They'll get outside. Maybe they'll get into a little bit of trouble. Who knows? But in the end, it's great for them. So Angela, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom today. It has been a joy to talk with you. And I just love your passion for getting kids outside. And I know that listeners are gonna take away so much from your episode today. So thank you so much.
Angela (49:20)
you
Thank you for having me.
Julianne Nienberg (49:42)
Thanks so much for spending part of your day with me. I hope this episode left you feeling encouraged and inspired to get outside and enjoy nature wherever your feet are. If you loved what you heard, it would mean the world to me if you tap those five stars or leave a quick review. It helps other outdoorsy minded moms find the show and grow the sweet little community. And if you're looking for more ways to simplify, slow down, and connect through nature, you can find me over on Instagram at myoutdoorsymom, read the blog at myoutdoorsymom.com, or explore all my digital resources and seasonal guides in the shop.
Everything's linked right there in the show notes. Until next time, take a deep breath, step outside, and I'll meet you back here next week.
